Who to blame for Sucker Punch?

Topic started by Spatulalad on March 26, 2011. Last post by Napalm 10 months, 3 weeks ago.
Post by Spatulalad (31 posts) See mini bio
Frank Miller. 
That's who you can blame.  
 
Let me clear; the comic book that made me want to get into comics was an issue of Miller's "Born Again" arc for Daredevil back in the '80s. While a lot of the credit may go to David Mazzucchelli for the quality of those issues, Frank Miller is obviously a giant in the genre and is worthy of acclaim despite the fact he's occasionally shown evidence that he had his brain eaten after 9/11. 
 
The thing is, though, as he's demonstrated time and again, he has a pretty retarded viewpoint on women characters and how to make them relevant. This goes way back, back to his earliest Daredevil comics work, what with Matt Murdock's tragic love interest Elektra. See, she was a pretty, happy woman who was forced to become a grim ninja assassin after her ambassador father was murdered. She used her sexuality as a weapon, which is another way to say she liked dressing in a thong or just going around naked, because that's what you do when you're sexy. She was deadly, too, but only in the sense that she could kill some mooks in ninja costumes - once a real male threat like Bullseye showed up, she was imperiled and Daredevil had to go try and save her. He failed, of course, because she was a fallen women in many ways, and because its cooler to have a lost love than a living one.  
 
Miller would take this same pattern and apply to just about every female protagonist he's had since; make her into an adolescent boy's sex goddess, make her a threatening, unapproachable badass, have her foolishly display her sensitivity to another character, then DESTROY her, preferably in a way that involves her dressing up in latex catsuits, leather bodices, or fishnets and doing some drugs. He did it to Karen Page, Daredevil's previously white-bread secretary turned coke whore, he did it to Catwoman in his Batman: Year One arc (another favorite of mine, also done with Mazzucchelli), making Selina Kyle a part time dominatrix in addition to being a sexxxed up cat burglar, and he created an entire populace of hot dangerous broads in the person of Sin City's odd harem of murderous hookers. 
 
Its this latter example of Miller's fixation on killer ladies of the evening which is perhaps the clearest lift for Snyder's hallucinogenic hodge-podge of arrested adolescent imagery. You say you've got some (attractive) women threatened by the male power structure? Have them fantasize about being powerful...by becoming sword wielding, bullet dancing strippers! That'll show those chauvinist dirtbags who's boss, right?! "Get yer tits out, girls! We're going to solve our problems with ultraviolence and dick-teasing!"
 
To be fair, Miller was only emulating the attitudes and imagery of the pulpy hardboiled crime stories that seem to be his bread and butter. Film noir and dime novels by guys like Mickey Spillane are filled to the brim with dangerous dames who get their way by showing some leg and hiding a gun in their handbag. They are also filled with climaxes which end with the femme fatale suffering karmic justice by being beaten, humiliated, or just plain killed by the extremely manly private dick protagonist. While Elektra's fate and the fate of the hero of Sucker Punch may not be quite so 1950's in their outlook, the truth is that they're rooted in the same notions; women can only gain power by co-opting the guns/swords/other-phallic-objects of the bad, bad men and using them better.  Also, they have to sacrifice themselves, because like any whore with a heart of gold since time immemorial, they can't directly benefit from their aggression - they gotta pay for being Too Beautiful And Too Deadly, preferably in a way that involves realizing they'd be better off as mommies. 
  
Its nothing new, and if you've seen any ten movies with "strong female protagonists" in it, probably nine of them follow this pattern.  

Where Miller sometimes succeeds with this gimmick, however, and Snyder does not is in at least trying to give his fantasy femmes a voice. Sure, they're mostly high-heeled cliches, but they've got Personality, they've got Perspectives, and they've got Flaws. As far as I can tell, the dangerous ladies of Sucker Punch only get close to having depth by virtue of having unique costumes and favored weapons. Everything else is style and CGI. So, while Miller could take the blame for seeding the idea of hot-chicks-with-gunz in Snyder's brain, he certainly cannot take the blame for how Snyder executed it.  That's all on him, and sooner or later he's going to have to stop co-opting co-opted ideas if he wants to go anywhere as a filmmaker.  Will that come in time to make his version of Superman be more than skin deep? I wouldn't hold my breath. 
Post by ryanwho (1,130 posts) See mini bio
Films go through hundreds of people before getting finalized. The idea of blaming one person is fucking ludicrous. The problem is Snyder makes money and when you make money, production doesn't reign you in. They assume whatever dumb shit you're doing is what the kids are into now. In this case its true. Its getting great numbers. So why would anyone blame anyone? Producers don't make movies like this to win Oscars. If it succeeds at bringing in money, its a success. You really think anyone involved in this film thought they were making high art and they're now they're horrified? I imagine the actresses caught glimpses of their whore outfits in the mirror at some point during the 4 month shoot or whatever. Everyone knew what this was.
Post by Oldirtybearon (114 posts) See mini bio

This argument is self-defeating. Miller brought hard boiled noir style to superhero comics, and you want to shit on him for using the motifs that make noir a genre? Fuck off. 
 
as for Snyder, he was never into comic books as you understand them. The dude read more Heavy Metal than any kid should be privy to. Heavy Metal isn't a comic book, either. If you want to call Snyder a misogynist then at least get your facts straight. this kind of snobbery is what makes film buffs hard to stomach.

Post by mylifeforAiur (1,655 posts) See mini bio
The average movie-goer is surely to be blamed.
Post by Spatulalad (31 posts) See mini bio
@ryanwho: That's a fair point; I'm engaging in some pretty big hyperbole by putting the sole blame on a guy who doesn't even has his name in the film credits.  
 
But I'm okay with that.  
 
Of all the myriad sources Snyder drew on for his first co-written, co-produced original feature film - a movie where he wouldn't be adapting someone else's work but rather supplying its main ideas - I think its pretty clear Frank Miller's brand of female protagonist is central to it. Even if we overlook their collaboration on 300 and its possible sequel, I think Miller's influence would still be evident - he's really cast a bigger shadow than many people give him credit (or blame) for.  
 
Now, if we tried to list every possible influence on this mish mash collage of a movie, I'll also admit - that'd be a big damn list, but I'd still personally put Miller's name up front and in caps. 
Post by Spatulalad (31 posts) See mini bio
@TheGief:  
  
Thanks for my first "fuck off" comment! Much appreciated, man.  
 
If I can contain my enthusiasm, let me try to respond to your other points: 
 
1. I'm not shitting on Frank Miller. Frank Miller, like I say, is a guy I actually respect. Despite that - maybe moreso because of it -  I can critique the man's quirks and what I think are big flaws in his work. If those flaws are attributable to the things that inspired him in the first place, that doesn't negate the fact that he's perpetuating 'em.  
 
2. Heavy Metal is a comic book. You know those Japanese manga things? Comic books. Sandman? Comic book. They can also be called "adult cartoons", "painted serials", "graphic novels", or "sequential art" if you'd like, but they're all working in the same medium even if their audiences like to pretend otherwise. To say Heavy Metal somehow transcends the earthly bonds of lesser, humbler comics by virtue of it featuring naked chicks, gory violence, or European art styles is like saying Run Lola Run isn't a movie because its German, features techno music, and has that whole time rewind thing in it.  
 
The notion that Snyder exists on some other plane of influence from Frank Miller is even more ridiculous; by all accounts it was Snyder who wanted to make 300 before he ended up making Dawn of the Dead. He may not have been knee deep in bagged issues of Daredevil and Dark Knight Returns and what not, but the dude clearly has been affected in his storytelling by Miller's work and the work of other comic book creators. And video games. And cartoons. And other nerdy things that guys who like Heavy Metal are often into. 
Post by Oldirtybearon (114 posts) See mini bio
@spatulalad: I was pretty pissed and in a boring movie at the time, my apologies for my rudeness. 
 
As for your points, it sounded like you were taking the piss out of Miller (which a lot of people seem to think is fun nowadays), and I honestly don't get the criticism. I also love the noir genre (be it in novels, comics, movies, or performance art), so it's hard for me to see your points as "flaws" necessarily, since I eat that stuff up to begin with. 
 
As for Snyder, the man is definitely a 30-something child, but it seemed like you were mocking his intellect more than anything. If Sucker Punch is a bad movie, I will see it and say so, but it felt rather dismissive of his past work to basically say "man steals everything from everybody else". I pointed out his love for Heavy Metal because, in all honesty, Heavy Metal is a collection of fantasy short stories (a fair chunk of them in comic book form) that is more akin to a magazine than a monthly serial comic book. Having quite a few issues myself, I can attest to that. It may not always be high brow or the best material out there, but Heavy Metal is reliable for imaginative and often bizarre fantasy stories. As for Watchmen and 300, Snyder has gone on record as saying those kinds of stories appeal to him. I wasn't saying he looks down on comics, just that the traditional superhero comic has never been interesting to him. Something he himself has stated a few times. 
 
As for Sucker Punch in general, the reviews I've been seeing seem to come from people who honestly - and I hate to use this term - "don't get it". Sucker Punch is escapist fantasy, and the brutality it depicts only sharpens the contrast between the world we imagine for ourselves and the cold reality of a given situation. I've yet to see it myself, but considering Snyder's track record so far I am more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and say Sucker Punch is not the depiction of misogyny and immaturity that critics are calling it.
Post by matthuliz (5 posts) See mini bio
The only person you can blame for Sucker Punch's failure is Zack Snyder. Why? Because:  
1. He hired a nobody to co-write the movie. This is his first original movie, then he hired someone who has no writing credit to co-write the screenplay with him? Really stupid! He should have gotten someone like . . . well, Frank Miller.
2. He used so much resources promoting and marketing this movie, and in return became over-hype. By the time the movie opened, people are expecting a lot of stuffs. Then they did not saw what they were expecting, so the NEGATIVE REVIEWS! He should have kept the information at a minimum. He should learn from Steven Spielberg on how to properly market a movie.
3. Since he spent too much on promotion, the quality of the movie suffered. I thought the cinematography and visual effects of Sucker Punch is not at par with that of Watchmen and 300. He should have spent more money on these aspects instead of marketing.
4. It was reported that at least 18 minutes were cut to get the MPAA approval of PG-13. Now whether those 18 minutes are really relevant or not, it is not an excuse to come up with a poorly edited film. Now who's to blame for a poorly edited movie? Not the editor, the director.

http://matthuliz.multiply.com/

Post by TheFaithfullyDeparted (1,855 posts) See mini bio
I believe that Snyder was smart in promoting the shit out of this movie. If he hadn't this movie would have slipped by and lost millions but with a marketing blitz and people believing its all action he can make the money back. And lets be honest there is no way in hell that movie reviewers weren't going to give this film negative reviews if the put an extra 5 million into, its just the type of movie that it is,
Post by Napalm (319 posts) See mini bio
@TheGief said:
As for Sucker Punch in general, the reviews I've been seeing seem to come from people who honestly - and I hate to use this term - "don't get it". Sucker Punch is escapist fantasy, and the brutality it depicts only sharpens the contrast between the world we imagine for ourselves and the cold reality of a given situation. I've yet to see it myself, but considering Snyder's track record so far I am more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and say Sucker Punch is not the depiction of misogyny and immaturity that critics are calling it.
I don't normally back up the advice of people who haven't seen a film, but you are right on the money, my friend. It isn't misogynistic or exploitative at all. It presents the situations as is.
Sucker Punch Theatrical Trailer

Here is the brand spanking new trailer for Zack Snyder's Sucker Punch. This might be Scott Glenn's best turn as a World War I general/spiritual guru since Backdraft.

Sucker Punch Teaser Trailer

Here's the first footage of Zack Snyder's Sucker Punch, which debuted at Comic-Con 2010.

news Alex's 10 Worst Films of 2011 Alex
review Visually stunning but lacking cohesion (3 out of 5) MrWright
review 300 has a baby with Dragonball and eats Inception's brain. (4 out of 5) CherryBomb
blog Special effects, we love and hate them. advent_crash
forum To get an accurate picture of the ratio of fans to haters on SUCKER PUNCH... VioletEyedDragon
forum Reviewers are hilarious, this movie is awesome, you are wrong. Napalm
forum Sucker Punch is no "Hate it or Love it" movie. It's mediocre... Mooqi
review Outstanding!!! ( out of 5) BestRTS
117 votes, 2.5 avg.

  • 4.1
General Information Edit
Name Sucker Punch
US Release March 25, 2011
UK Release April 1, 2011
AUS Release
Runtime 110
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Rating PG-13
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  • In today's dollars
    Domestic $36,392,502
    Foreign +53,400,000
  • = total worldwide gross $89,792,502
  • - a reported budget of $82,000,000
  • = a 9.5% net profit of $7,792,502
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