The Dark Knight Rises Forum

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As I prepare myself for the midnight release of the movie, I can't help but wonder if this is how it would have played out if Heath Ledger were still alive. Would Nolan have continued the story of the Joker or weaved him into the Bane story line? Would there even be a Bane story line this soon? I've heard Nolan and the rest of the cast say that this is the conclusion, the final Batman movie Nolan will make. Could Ledger's death have caused Nolan to "shortcut" his plans for Batman? Yes, a new Joker could have been casted but I believe Ledger embodied exactly what Nolan was looking for and it would be most difficult to find another. Though we may never know if this was the full vision Nolan had for Batman, it still makes me wonder what could have been.

I've often wondered this same thing. Considering how awesome Heath did with the Joker character and the open-ended conclusion of The Dark Knight, I'm sure that Nolan was planning on using him for the third film. I think Heath's death changed everything, although I also think that even if Ledger was alive, Nolan would have only made three Batman films. I wish I could see the alternate universe where Heath Ledger is alive and The Dark Knight Rises has the Joker in it...

The Nolan brothers and David Goyer are probably the only ones who could answer that. Wasn't one of the original ideas for The Dark Knight was to have Harvey Dent's transformation into Two-Face happen in part three and the Joker spend the second film corrupting him, setting the stage? Maybe I'm mistaken.

@RockinKemosabe: I'm not sure. I always went to the Dark Knight thinking it was all about Bruce and the Joker. It was marketed greatly that way in the trailers. I thought for sure we would see more of Harvey in the Dark Knight Rises. I guess things changed. I would love to see Harvey in a half and half black and white suit and Bruce trying to bring him back.

Just so everyone's aware the thread title should be The Dark Knight Rises Story.

I think it changed where Nolan may have been going with the overall story. Perhaps Bane was going to be Joker since Bane seems to be a bit more intelligent than he typically has been in the past it seems.

@FinalDasa: other than the appearance in Batman & Robin Bane has never really shown to be dumb. He has always been intelligent and thoughtful planner like his first appearance in Batman:TAS "Bane"

I'd defiantly say the death of Ledger changed the initial idea of what Dark Knight 2 would be. Defiantly from a structural standpoint sense there was no way Nolan would use Joker again with out Ledger. Emotionally though TDKR might hit many of the same notes they planned out but the plot would be different.

This is a really good question. I don't know about the three movie issue, but I think that after Ledger owned the role as the Joker, it would be hard to toss him to the side, and start with a new villain. Nolan is such a master film maker, so I'm sure either way it would have been an amazing movie. I think Ledger dying is actually a good thing for the series ( without seeming insensitive), because I think it ensures that each movie focuses on one villain. As awesome as the Joker was in TDK, I feel like part of my interest in TDKR is the mystery surrounding what Bane is truly capable of.

I think the answer is "No". You really think he would have ended the trilogy with the final film also starring the Joker? I find that incredibly unlikely. I feel pretty confident that the story with Bane is the one Christopher Nolan had in mind probably long before they even filmed The Dark Knight. I don't really think another round with the Joker would have benefitted the trilogy much and surely he would be less intimidating the second time around. I almost said that I thought perhaps we might have seen the Joker in a cameo, but I had to stop myself for one reason. The Joker DEMANDS screentime. To throw him in with a short cameo would not do the character justice and would also detract from any other villain the 3rd film might feature. Two-Face wasn't a bad villain, but even he is often overlooked when discussing The Dark Knight simply because he happened to share his film with the dominance of the Joker. To do that again to another villain would be unfair and would really keep the trilogy from progressing as much as it can without him. As much as we'd all like to see more of the Joker, I believe it works out for the best that we won't, and I don't think we would have even if Heath Ledger was still alive. Besides, you start messing with that kind of legendary performance by having the character needlessly return to please fans and it can end up hurting the character as a result.

@Vincemaster: or a different universe, were joker killed batman, and Gotham is in flames?

@TheGreatGuero: I agree, no way joker was planned for this one, He didn't think he was going to do another film after the dark knight, he would have killed the joker in the movie, like 2 face

@TheGreatGuero I have to agree

I am 100 percent sure I read he always planned for it to be a trilogy as every story has a beginning, a middle ground, and an ending. And what better than to see the fall of batman during the 2nd movie and the third movie continue where the 2nd left off in that respect and then see him rise and the series close out with batman stronger and wiser than ever. Why leave it open for more possibilities, every superhero franchise is a steam engine and eventually it's going to run out of steam. Batman begins, and Batman the dark knight had people excited about batman. Nolans first batman gave the franchise the reboot it NEEDED rather than the reboot people wanted. The second movie just upped the ante and gave us the joker and everyone was super skeptical about heath ledger being the joker as they are bane being the final villain. But Nolan has my trust, he can do no wrong and I think it's best to bow out gracefully rather than drag it out and lose what makes his batman entries special.

Just like Michael bay made 3 transformers movie, all were okay but never won the fans over and everyone was glad to hear he was done, now he's talking about making a fourth one and nobody really cares and will probably try to hate it even if it's good and has a better story and premise and no witwicky's. Some franchises just need to end.

I want to say maybe. I could see with the Joker locked up, Batman having to tap into him as a resource of Chaos to try to stop Bane. Bane is too big, too powerful, and too smart. The element of Chaos the Joker would bring would give him an edge.

That said, Nolan was not intent on doing a 3rd film. Part of the deal with Inception was that they'd fund a pet project of his IF he'd come back for a third movie.

After watching the movie, at most he would have had a Cameo. I mean Look at Crane

@Watcherg44: Joker is different from Crane. Joker doesn't want to destroy the city through nuclear means. He just wants the Bat. I think he may have appeared but wouldn't have been on Bane's side. He also wants to be the only one who can kill the Batman.

I think he would have had his moment. Let out of Black Gate like the rest of the criminals and caused a roadblock for Batman. I can easily see Joker prancing through the chaos that Gotham became and having the time of his life.

After watching the movie, at most he would have had a Cameo. I mean Look at Crane

If that is the way you guys fell, then i guess i'm wrong

I have to say that you're probably right that Heath Ledger's death altered the future film. I could have definitely have seen the Joker returning to wreck more havoc and destruction after Dark Knight. It's a shame that we will not be able to see another brilliant performance by Ledger.

On the August 15th episode of Doug Benson's 'Doug Loves Movies' podcast he had Patton Oswalt on to talk about The Dark Knight. Patton claims that he knew the plot for a 3rd Batman movie that would have had Bruce Wayne getting himself locked up in Arkham Asylum to battle the Joker and starting his own gang to fight with the Joker's gang. I'm not sure if he is bullshitting or not but he says all this in a serious tone and doesn't make any jokes about it. He'd probably be one of the people in the know given his geek status in Hollywood.

You can kind of see some of those elements in TDKR, ie the factions of cops fighting it out with the Legue of Shadows, Batman getting locked up in prison.

You can buy the podcast here: http://astrecords.com/dlm/index.php